Episode 5
Building High-Performing Teams in Software Engineering
More Than A CV is proudly sponsored by Biometric Talent - The Tech Authentication Specialists.
In this episode of the More Than a CV podcast, Sean Allen speaks with Mujtaba Ghauri, an Engineering Manager with over a decade of experience in software engineering. Mujtaba shares his career journey, starting as an intern at Auto Trader and progressing through various roles to his current position. He discusses his hiring philosophy, emphasising the importance of potential and problem-solving skills, and how he fosters a culture of growth and opportunity within his teams.
Mujtaba also highlights the significance of mentorship, diversity, and creating a supportive environment for team members to thrive. He offers valuable insights for new managers on building high-performing teams and the importance of open communication and feedback.
Connect with Mujtaba here – Mujtaba Ghauri | LinkedIn
If you'd like to appear on the podcast or share topics you'd like us to cover in the future, please contact Sean Allen here - Sean Allen | LinkedIn
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Transcript
Welcome to the More Than a CV podcast. I'm delighted to be joined today by Mujtaba Gowri. Mujtaba's software engineering career spans more than a decade, moving from a software developer intern to engineering manager, working for household names such as Autotrader UK, Jaguar Land Rover, and more recently, the very group. Welcome Mujtaba. Thank you for joining us today. How are you? Good. Now, pleasure to have you and you're looking good as well, mate. It's nice to see you again.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:I'm very well, thank you, how are you? Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Sean Allen (:I guess before we tuck into the topics we want to chat about today, for any of our listeners that don't know who you are, it would be lovely just to hear a bit more about you and your career today.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah, absolutely. again, once again, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to yourself, Sean. It's really nice seeing you and speaking to you again. So yeah, everybody, my name is Mujtaba Gowri. I am a engineering manager currently at the Veru Group. My career started off in 2014 when I joined Auto Trader as the very first intern within the company. I met a couple of lovely people at a graduate fair.
at Salford University, my then manager Andrew Foster, everybody knows him as Foggy, just like a really unique beard, such a lovely chap and a lady called Sarah Brooks-Pearse and you know I had a chat with them and I was like woof Auto Trader, this was a company that I'd kind of
known as a child, know, looking, flicking through the magazines and, hearing about the kind of digital transformation, et cetera. And, you know, they really me an insight into the culture, the kind of, and that was, I'd say my very first kind of interaction with somebody coming from a software engineering kind of background or company. And it really motivated me to kind of get, you know, get stuck in and went through the application and what have you, and, you know, joined back then.
And I was there from: ngineer. I left Autotrader in: Mujtaba Ghauri (:And then I moved to Jaggi Wollandrover where I held multiple different roles. So went in as a senior software engineer. I also did an interim kind of Scrum Master role and lead there as well. And then, yeah, fast forward into 2021, October the 4th to be precise. I still remember the date where I started in Speak, the very group. Yeah, I've been there ever since now.
Sean Allen (:Thank
Mujtaba Ghauri (:three and a half years and working there as an engineer manager. Absolutely love what I do on a day to day basis. The people element, the technology element, it's something that I've always kind of aspired to do. That's about me.
Sean Allen (:So it's amazing that some of the brands you've worked for, I mean, you look at the names, just everyone knows them, right? think Auto Trader, especially one of the sort of first ones in sort of Manchester that caught my eye is in terms of being quite progressive with the way they hire, but also just having a reputation and without the bias there of just having very good people at what they do. I know in one of my past roles, we target them, knowing.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Thank
Sean Allen (:nine times out of 10, they're going to be great.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Honestly, I think I couldn't have asked for a better company to join coming kind of, you know, with that transition between university and, you landing your first role. For me, it was an unbelievable experience. think, you know, culture, culture wise, the people again, absolutely fantastic. The technology stock, you know, you know, working on kind of big monoliths to kind of microservices.
you know, every everything there, the culture, the technology, the people, you know, it was for me very, very kind of early stages coming into that kind of environment was like, wow, I love what I do. And it really gave me a passion for software engineering. And to be fair, I don't know if I would have been as passionate as I am about what I do if I hadn't started off where I was, because
Just being in a company with a great culture, great people, great environment, great atmosphere, it really kind of gears you up for the rest of your career.
Sean Allen (:That's nice. And not everyone's fortunate enough to get that, are they, with their first role? to go somewhere where there's the people that support you and help develop you and have that sort of culture, inclusive culture, is always nice to hear. And I guess that leads us on quite nicely, right? Because obviously you're now gone from software developer intern all the way through to engineering manager. So now you're one of those people much.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Absolutely.
Sean Allen (:building those teams, leading those teams, trying to create that culture. So there's probably a lot we'll touch on throughout that. I guess to start with, guess what do you sort of look for? Because I understand from your teams, it's a lot of software engineers that you're hiring, if I'm not mistaken, into your squads, as we might call them. How would you sort of assess what you need when you go to market?
I guess grow your teams or fill those gaps where people might have moved on, whether internally or externally.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, it all kind of depends on the kind of type of role that we're actually looking to hire. So, you know, that can go from kind of people fresh out of university all the way to kind of, you you're more senior, more principal software engineers. So, I mean, when I am actually hiring software engineers myself, you know, one of the biggest things I look for is potential. You know, look for potential in a person, you know, somebody who I know will
come in, let's say for example, if they're graduate, somebody who I know and I can see them being able to progress within their career, somebody who's got that real hunger, that real desire, that willingness to learn and kind of always be out of their comfort zone. For me, that's one of the most kind of important things. Not only just again as a graduate, but any kind of role or any level that I'm looking at, that hunger, that desire, potential to...
to be able to grow as an individual, as an engineer is one of the most kind of key, most important things. Alongside that, as a software engineer, one of the biggest things is problem solving. That's again, one of the key things. So lot of the kind of questions that I'll ask is around kind of how they've solved different technical problems, whether that's hands-on kind of within the...
know, developing as an engineer or whether that's kind of within the team, right? So, you know, that really gives me a good indication as to what kind of person they really, really are. And I think one of the biggest and most important things for me, alongside kind of the whole technical side of stuff is that person, the person itself, you know, how well will they collaborate with the team that they'll be coming into? You know, and that's regardless of whether it's a graduate or a senior, you how will that person come in? Will they...
as a senior engineer, does the person that I'm coming in fit into the culture that I built within the team? A culture of openness, transparency, honesty, teamwork, one of the biggest things that I kind of look for and the kind of culture that I'm looking to instill within the team itself. And that for me is the biggest thing is that compatibility, right? I'd want somebody to come in and be happy and...
Mujtaba Ghauri (:for them to understand what they're coming into or what their potential is and what I can get out of them and what they can get out of us ultimately. It works two ways, right?
Sean Allen (:Do you think the way you approach hiring has been shaped from what you were talking about just during your introduction of the experience that you've gone through? Because I think from, as a recruiter of 17 years this month, which is scary, you do get some people that will fixate on hitting all of the tech they need at a certain level and perhaps flexibility after that.
Um, I've met other people where as long as they can code and they're to code in, have the aptitude to learn in what they're using in the team, that, you know, that sort of flex a lot more around that. do you think a lot of your, yeah, I guess it's your home philosophy, I imagine honed over time as well as you've stepped through more senior positions. Is that, that influence rooted from, from the start of your career?
Mujtaba Ghauri (:For sure, for sure. And again, you know, for me, it's about providing people with an opportunity. I'm going to mention again, Auto Trader again, right? Because again, it's a company that gave me an opportunity. You know, I look at myself now, I'm by far not the most smart, it's not the most kind of, you know, talented within the team, within, you know, within the business. But the company kind of gave me the opportunity. And I think giving people an opportunity to excel.
to show that passion, to show that willingness to learn, it goes above and beyond. can see the, it pays dividends in the future. And AutoTrader, again, I keep mentioning that because it provided opportunity to so many people who I've seen, there was a chap that I used to work with who was, I think he came in as a customer services advisor and he had, I think he'd had a finished university where he'd done a degree in kind of,
Android mobile development and you know, Austria has provided him with the opportunity and I follow him on LinkedIn now and he's absolutely smashing it. I think he's a senior Android developer now. And you know, he was somebody that I used to chat with, phenomenal footballer as well, you know, have to put it out there. You know, he was fantastic.
just, yeah, one of the most humble guys that you could, and I'm seeing him on LinkedIn now and he's doing such a good, he's doing so well in his career, right? And again, it's that kind of culture that AutoTrader had to be able to provide people with opportunities. And that's really something that I've instilled within myself. And it's just me as a person as well. I'd love to provide kind of opportunities to people to allow them to grow. You know, most notably one of our,
recently promoted engineering managers who was reporting into myself. She came from a .NET kind of background, .NET slash Java background in her previous roles. The team that she got hired into was Python. She had no Python experience whatsoever, but she showed her passion.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:She showed us strengths within the interviews, her willingness to learn, her willingness to kind of pick everything up. And she's just been promoted to an engineer manager now, and she was reporting into myself and I have asked for a better person to step into that role because again, that hunger, that desire to learn has never gone away. She's now picked up Python, absolutely fantastic at it, but also at the same time, a lot of the stuff that she's working on is...
kind of Java as well, so she can help out on both sides. And again, she was given the opportunity to prove that she's capable of doing what she's doing. And for me, I look back at that and it's such a proud moment to have given her the opportunity to come in and join a team which is not what she's usually doing on a day-to-day basis. It's a new domain, new way of working, new language in a sense, right?
she had that willingness to learn. You know, she was really...
Mujtaba Ghauri (:really showed her passion and her potential and that's what I saw and you know she's been promoted to an and she fully deserves it so it's such a proud moment honestly.
Sean Allen (:Well, she's listening. Congratulations. So we don't have to name her and put her under the spotlight on the pod. You probably did yourself a disservice a little earlier there, Mudge, saying not we're the smartest in the room. But there is something to be said about great leadership is by bringing in the team of people smarter than you and better at certain things that you're not. And that's how you end up with those high performing teams, Because not everybody's following the same track, same thought process.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah.
Sean Allen (:all of that and you mentioned a lot around the passion and the aptitude. Do you find that that's helped you build more diverse teams? And I don't just mean that from a sort of gender perspective, which is the way that people think or process information or challenge the way things are done. you found that that's helped you build more diverse teams by having
that flexibility at looking at a sort of core technical level that you need, but the aptitude to learn as opposed to trying to take every single bit of technology that you need to slot into that particular gap that's been left or has opened up.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I think, you know, the fundamental things for me again, when, when, when hiring and kind of looking to build them kind of teams is again, kind of around that passion to learn the willingness to, you know, to, to kind of share that knowledge, right. Within, the team as well and being able to, you know, but again, having somebody there with, with a, with a real kind of strong technical background.
One of the examples I can give is my, within the team that I currently manage at the moment, I had an engineer who's no longer with us at the moment, he's moved on. But he's somebody that again, auto trader, you're hearing this, right? But I'm mentioning auto trader so many times and I actually met him on my graduate kind of intake thing when I was there and he was an engineer there and fast forwarding to 20.
when the kind of dynamics changed where we were colleagues and I was kind of his manager. But he was somebody who as an engineer, absolutely phenomenal. Honestly, by far one of the best engineers, one of the best engineers I've worked with. And he showed that technical side of things.
He was the one that I got kind of brought in into the team at the very kind of early stages to build this high performing team with a strong kind of strong kind of fundamental within this engineer himself as a strong foundation, sorry, of a culture of kind of continuous learning, a culture of sharing that knowledge and being able to kind of mentor other engineers, but also be able to challenge.
kind of, you know, designs, for example, challenge kind of, you know, ways of working, you know, and try and have that kind of influence and build that within the team. And, you know, by kind of bringing that in initially and having that strong foundation there, then the next hire and the next hires and the next hire kind of after that, you know, again, people who I can see again with that potential, that willingness to learn.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:but then having that kind of connection, that relationship there to build up and share that knowledge and share the experiences. know, again, after I'd, yeah, he, you know, after I'd worked with him for a few years, you know, he's moved on to, you know, something else, you know, again, know, fantastic individual, right? He won't even mind me shouting him out. Roy Schumacher, I know you're listening.
brilliant person. And, you know, he became like a best friend, that, you know, hand in heart, best friend. And he's obviously, you know, moved on to bigger and better things. But Kim, the way that he kind of mentored the more kind of mid-level engineer now, you know, and it took for Roy to leave, for him to move on to bigger and better things, for the other engineer to then kind of come out of his shell. And he has now again outshone within the team. And again,
Sean Allen (:You
Sean Allen (:Okay.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:another promotion, you know, and he's gone from mid-level to principal engineer. You know, he's, he's, he's then kind of learnt from Roy, them kind of skills to be able to then mentor other people, you know, even mentor people more kind of, you know, more senior to him. But again, kind of getting that, it's that willingness to learn, to share the knowledge, to, to show his potential, you know, and all of that really kind of fits in, fits in really, really well.
Sean Allen (:think it's, I mean, it's nice to see, I think we talk a lot around, um, sort of hiring and a lot of time we're talking about the external market and bringing people in, but there's, there's obviously that huge piece around developing the people you've got and giving them opportunity to step up to get that experience as well with the right support structure around them to, to, um, to learn. So it'd be nice to sort of touch, touch on that next much around sort of that career career growth, cause you've clearly got a
passion for helping people get to that next step in their career, whether I imagine whether that's within your own team, within the business you're at, or even if there's nothing there, you know, to be ready for that next step somewhere else, which is really nice to see. how, I guess how do you go about that? Because it's easier said than done, right? Helping people progress in their career. you know, some people are really good at that leadership piece and
other people, find it more difficult, you know, and maybe lean on other people to help them to help people in their team. How do you sort of approach that? Because it sounds like you've had great success in people moving on to bigger roles within your team and other roles within the business. So I guess what's your, don't know if it's a secret to success of doing it. But yeah, what's your style, how does this work? Because I'm sure people are to be chomping at the bits of work with you now.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:put me on the spot there mate. kind of ever since my kind of developer days, right? I've always had that vision of being a manager. And look, everybody goes through good and bad experiences in their career, right? And I'd say probably the bad experiences I'd probably say had kind of given me that kick to...
be a people manager and be a manager that, know, learn from the bad and, know, bad experiences, I'd say, to try and make the experiences for the people better.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:having trust in people, having the...
having trust, being open, being transparent, being honest, providing people with opportunities to grow, whether that's within work, providing them with opportunities to pick up pieces of work where they can really, really outshine themselves. One of the biggest things we did here was change the way that we were working within the very group and especially within the teams I'm working with is, for example, getting my engineers involved.
very, very early on in the software development lifecycle, collaborating closely with our architecture team. So they understand not only just the technical side of stuff for what they're doing, but also the business value and what they're actually building, right? And getting them to actually design pieces of work. So giving them the, how do I put it? The platform to kind of outshine and opportunities to grow.
being selfish sometimes, know, having really spending that personal development time that we've kind of allocated as well to really grow in certain areas, you know, learn something new that will benefit yourself, benefit obviously the business, you whether that's now or later on in your career, you know, having kind of regular kind of catch-up sessions with the engineers and I'm just, I don't know, some people might think I'm very, very laid back, but you know,
I want to have like a friendly relationship with the people that report in to me. Not only just to help them but also help them within their careers. So just having that kind of good understanding between ourselves as well.
Sean Allen (:It sounds like a nice way to do think the most important thing is that culture and environment you've created, right? Because that to me just sounds like a psychologically safe space where your team can, at whatever level, whether they're that graduate that are in or they're that principal engineer, can challenge why we're doing something a certain way or share ideas and not be shot down, but discuss why it would be a good approach to look at or why it might not.
people, I guess that's one way you learn, isn't it? But I like that stretch of where can I get them involved in a bit of project work, where it gives them that stretch or, you know, like shadowing the architects more and be involved earlier on. And I really like blocking the personal development time because it's really easy. And a lot of people, I'll say myself included, would have every intent in doing that. But then you get sidetracked by work that you've got to do.
And there's never enough hours in the day to do the work we've got to do because it's a continuous thing, right? So you fall into that pit of giving up your time to learn and develop in favor of just constant, constant delivery. So as a manager blocking that, if you're doing it and showcasing, it's important. And then they're going to follow suit, right? And you're protecting that time for them. I mean, obviously, unless you get a P1 or something, you know, you're...
Mujtaba Ghauri (:absolute.
Sean Allen (:You're protected, aren't you? You
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah, and you know what, like every, you know, as a general kind of rule of thumb, I've kind of said, look, block out, you know, hard. So we work in that two week sprints. you know, half of their sprint, sorry, half of their week or, you know, book it one Friday every, you know, every two weeks or whatever, you know, to have that 10 % of, you know, your development time and be selfish, you know, block out your calendar, you know, we've obviously factored that into our.
our sprints as well, you know, when we're capturing our capacity within the team as well. But, you know, look, sometimes in some sprints, things will, you know, it'll be different. You might be, like you said, a P1 may come up or you have to hit a deadline. So, you know, some sprints will be completely 100 % kind of working on the initiative work that you're working on and you don't really get that time. But then when the sprints kind of calm down a little bit, that's when
you get the chance to pick up and use that personal development time that's allocated to you for your own kind of personal growth as well.
Sean Allen (:like that. There's a big bit around leading for example, but then being the advocate to protect that time as well, especially if you've got stakeholders from other areas of the business coming in. And I like the selfishness of it. I like that. But at the same time, right, surely you have a happier, team, more productive team, a team that's constantly learning and getting better at their craft as well, which only benefits you and the business that you're working for, right?
Mujtaba Ghauri (:for short.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Absolutely, and know, against just seeing kind of people thrive, learning, know, constantly learning and, you know, really, really growing themselves within their careers, you know, that for me, you know, obviously, again, there's a benefit to them, there's a benefit to myself, there's a benefit to the team, you know, there's a benefit to the business, you know, as a whole and, you know, and wherever else they decide to kind of move on to, you know, it sets them up really, really nicely. You know, I've had...
and again, another engineer, know, who when he first started, he won't mind me kind of saying, but you know, it was difficult, don't get me wrong. It was kind of difficult for him to adapt and maybe the role that he was hired into probably just wasn't right for him. But we fed that back, you know, I fed that back to him. you know, that for me was one of the biggest challenges for me very, very early on in my managerial career within...
the first few months saying, God, I need to, how am gonna do this? How am gonna have to provide him with this news anyway? We provide him with the news, we put a little plan together. This person has really come a long way now. We were catching up regularly now, one-to-ones, mid-year reviews, half-year reviews, putting in a bit of a plan and just again, providing him with a platform to be able to learn and to grow. Now he's one of my star performers.
He's just absolutely outshone himself. He's picked up a project which he's essentially designed, developed, tested, deployed pretty much all himself. And another proud moment for me, seeing him and it's just him showing that willingness and that hunger to grow and to learn. for a few years the opportunity just didn't come and when the opportunity came to him, he took it with both hands.
and he'd learned a hell of a lot throughout that time and really focused on himself as well. you know, absolutely delighted and proud of his achievements, honestly. Yeah, it makes you quite emotional when I think about it. But again, it's just, you know, as a manager, have that, you're proud of your team and you're proud of the people that you manage and yeah, it's just unbelievable. Absolutely.
Sean Allen (:That's why you do it,
Mujtaba Ghauri (:It's my passion, you know, it's my passion. And that's why I get out of bed every morning to, you know, to work with the team and try and help them as much as I can.
Sean Allen (:It's nice to see, it's nice to that as well on the feedback piece, because I think it's quite, especially if it's at the early stage of year, and I was the same, it's still difficult now, isn't it? But having those conversations, once you understand people and how they like to receive feedback and stuff, it helps as well, doesn't it? Because you can understand some people want it direct, some people much a softer approach and then time to reflect. And once you get to know your team members individually and how they like to receive feedback.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Go.
Sean Allen (:it enables you to package it the right way so they respond the way you want them to respond like this chap did in terms of both hands on that next challenge and work with you on there and just becoming better at their craft, right?
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah, as I said, know, for me coming in, that was like, probably say one of the biggest challenges in my career was very early in my managerial career as well was how am I going to give him that, you know, that feedback because I'm always such a positive person, right? And, you know, in both again, as a leader, sometimes you have to provide constructive feedback and put a plan in place to try and help and support and guide and grow, you know.
I still remember the conversation that I had with him and I said, look, you know, I'm giving you this feedback now. This conversation go one or two ways. It's like you're falling at the edge of the cliff, you know, and some people just completely fall off or you're just holding on, right? And you pull yourself up and you carry on climbing. And that's what he did. And seeing him now, just again, proud, so, so proud.
Sean Allen (:Everest now made it. guess I won't put you on the spot with a difficult question but conscious of time which obviously you've been on a journey through your own managerial career would that someone that if there's anyone listening who's maybe sort of entering that leadership position for the first time whether it's quite informal or a much more formal line management role.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:He's top of every smoke.
Sean Allen (:Any sort of tips or advice you'd give them to help with that maybe from your own learnings that you've gone through.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Having a strong, high performing collaborative team, the kind of fundamentals of having and kind of growing that team is about how you are with them. Again, talking about my own experiences, I've had people that, to be fair, I wished they'd helped me a little bit more, kind of our...
you know, as a manager, you know, you'd want to kind of lean on somebody for that kind of help and support. And sometimes, you know, you just don't get it. But really kind of the dials have kind of completely changed now. You're no longer an IC, you're no longer an individual contributor. It's now about your team and...
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Don't be selfish. know, put your team first, put their health and wellbeing first, you know, put their learning first. That itself is the most kind of important thing. You know, build that kind of culture of trust. Be open, be honest, be transparent, you know, no matter how things, you how bad things are, you know, always kind of be open and transparent with your team. And, you know, for me, be on a level with them in a sense where you can have a friendly conversation with them and, you can...
you'd go out with them for a night out, for example, or whatever, as a team, you'd go out for a meal. There's no awkwardness there, right? Going out with manager, need to bite my tongue or what have you. Trust me, I've done that in the past, But also at the same time, it's a culture where nobody can tread on yourself as well, in a sense where you can have...
Sean Allen (:Thank
Mujtaba Ghauri (:difficult conversations where needs be, but again, being supportive and being kind of somebody who they can actually rely on and lean on as well. For me, that is the most important thing. Rightly or wrongly, it's something that I've instilled within the team that I've managed, the teams that I've managed, And it's just the way that I am as a person. I'd rather somebody be open and honest and transparent with me.
people how you'd want to be treated.
Sean Allen (:the way you show up, isn't it? So the way, the way you show up in the way you act, whether you're seen or not seen, it sounds like is what your team will respond to. And that'll give you a good or a bad outcome from, or from that. And I guess finally, Mudge, how can people, if they're not already connected with your good self, how can they connect with you or contact you if they just want to, I guess, have a further conversation or?
Mujtaba Ghauri (:of
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Absolutely.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:for sure.
Sean Allen (:explore some of the topics with you that we've discussed today.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Yeah, I'm more than open to that. I'm available on LinkedIn, Mujtaba Gary. And I'm sure you obviously put the link in once this podcast goes live as well. You know, message me on LinkedIn. I'm one of them people that is very responsive. And, you know, you won't wait days and days for a response. So, you know, if you ever want to reach out to have a chat or have you
Feel free to contact me via LinkedIn. Always available. Lines always open.
Sean Allen (:I'll make sure we share that link in the show notes. But I'd just like to say a massive thank you much for your time and for coming on to share your experiences and insights with us today. It's been an absolute pleasure as always seeing you, mate.
Mujtaba Ghauri (:Thank you very much and thank you for inviting me and for this opportunity. And likewise, mate, it was very nice to speak to you again and see you again. So I really, really appreciate it, mate. Thank you. You too, mate. Thank you. See you.
Sean Allen (:weekend. you soon.
