The Importance of Mentorship in Professional Growth

Sean Allen (: 00:01

Welcome to the More Than a CV podcast. I'm delighted to be joined today by Zahra Mutaza. Zahra is currently Senior Vice President, Agile Coach at BNY and also an AI Advisor, AI Tech UK. Her career spans many delivery management and agile coaching roles across organizations such as GFT Group, Barclays and more. Welcome Zahra, thanks for joining. How are you?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 00:23

thank you, Cheryl. Thanks for having me.

Sean Allen (: 00:25

Thanks for joining. How are doing today? think you had a late one last night, right?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 00:29

Yeah, so that was just me travelling, that was me travelling back. It was actually a really good one. I don't want to do any plugins, but Inspired Business are awesome. So I did a CIO CISO event yesterday, so I was on a panel and I met some amazing panellists.

Sean Allen (: 00:44

Well, I appreciate you getting up early to record with me this morning after the long travel, so thank you. Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you with us today. It'd be great for our listeners who maybe don't know who you are, just to hear a bit more about you and your career today.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 00:49

No worries.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 00:59

Yeah, of course. So I do call myself the check of all trades, of of none, but master of many. And the reason I say that is whenever you're in a delivery role, you're basically doing a bit of everything, especially when I was in consulting with GFT. So if I if I'll start off with that's my career journey started off like everyone, you just need a job. So I've never planned. I've never planned to get into it. And then I like the project space. So I see what my dad does. Obviously, my dad owns a firm. But basically.

as an MD you are program managing, you are project managing. So I like, kinda like that. So I went into, I went into, of all the places, I went into a scientific firm. Like everyone does apparently. But it was because it was close by and I could drive there or I could like stay, but why would I be paying rent when I'm just literally got a role? And then from that I ended up getting back into another science firm for my grad role and that was

Sean Allen (: 01:40

Interesting.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 01:57

Program and project management. Absolutely loved it. So like everyone else, I love being very hands on. So I love hands on experience. So what I ended up doing was learning more about program management. And then because I was on the inside sales bit where you make the tools, I learned about Agile. And that's on my own back. So then I was going to the place, like, do you know what Agile is? Do you know what Scrum is? And they were like, no, sorry, we're not ready for that, which I completely understand.

at that time, about 10 years ago. And as a science firm, we probably wouldn't go that way. I know AstraZeneca and Waters are agile now. And probably the place I was at is probably agile, maybe, considering it's got it in the name, Agilent Technologies. But then Barclays were doing a massive recruitment for their tech hub in Knutsford. And they just reached out and like, do you want to roll? And I was like, I don't even know what Scrum Master is, but.

This is actually one piece of advice, go for it, like literally go for it. I don't even like rugby and I heard the word scrum and I was like I'm still going for it because it's literally at Berkeley, it's a prestigious place so I like it as well. So went into scrum and then I started understanding what scrum is, what agile is. However, I remember speaking, he's a very good friend of mine now, so I remember speaking to Chris who hired me and also Sheena, she's a very, very good friend of mine, she's actually still my mentor. I was speaking to Chris and he goes...

Sean Allen (: 02:59

You

Zahraa Murtaza (: 03:21

I knew you knew nothing about Agile, but it was the way you speak. So again, that's more than the CV there. Again, it's a, because we knew you would be a team player, that's why we hired you, because you had that charisma in you to hit the values that we have at Barclays, but at the same time, work with the team. And it was like, you can tell you've learned a lot because you did an economics degree, went into a science field, went into the tech bit of science.

So you're learning as you go, but you have that within you to constantly learn and constantly ask questions. So even during my interview, I was asking a lot of questions just to understand. So I kind of think he got that whole, well, she's asking, so she clearly wants to know about it. Exactly, that's the correct word. I got the aptitude to learn. So from there, I just loved Agile. it was for me. From going from a program waterfall side where,

Sean Allen (: 04:01

She's got the aptitude to learn this. So yeah.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 04:18

you have to have the requirements set in stone to then go to a place where you learn from your failures. Absolutely love it because I've never been the most academically gifted. I've been very practical. So I've always, very hands on. I'm not an academic person. It's quite funny because people always say, you're a very smart cookie. And I'm like, is it just the school system that...

It isn't right because I generally, if you see it on paper, probably think, yeah, she got a first, but she probably isn't smart cookie because that was my placement that probably pushed my grade up there, but you never know, do you? So it is one of those where I'm very hands-on and I just love learning off other people because the only way you can learn is by learning off other people. That's what cross-functionality means in Agile. It's about learning and filling in those gaps.

Sean Allen (: 04:54

Right.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 05:10

Because even if you think of it as a family, like if someone's having a bad day and they usually the person that takes out the bins, you're going to take that on. You're going to take that role on, aren't you? You're not just going to wait for them to get better and then take them out the next Tuesday. It's that that that's how it is. Because if you are a cohesive team and you're cross-functional, you know where everyone fits in. So you will then help out with those other things. So it's a perfect cross-functionality. And then from Barclays, that was my big break. So.

Sean Allen (: 05:21

Yeah.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 05:39

did really, really well, was a scrum master, technical delivery manager, and then there was a lot of shuffling going on, and then GFT reached out to me, and I never wanted to leave. It was just one of those where COVID ended up hitting, we were all working from home, and I think that's what I missed. missed, like my best friends are from there, so two of my best friends are because of Barclays, so it shows that kind of.

family type, social type interaction you had. So we used to go out every Thursday. It was just perfect. Every Thursday, go out, have a chit chat, get to know people, figure out the pain points. So then I was like, well, I missed that. Maybe that's why I was actually really in the role. It was more of the people than it was the projects that you're doing. Because in tech, once you understand the tech stack and once you understand how to problem solve, so not how to do the work, but how to problem solve, that's when you start learning.

then GFT came to me and they were like well we've got like an agile coach role and I was like I love the agile stuff actually I'm one of my other really good friends as well so think all my friends are basically from Barclays so I'm one of my other good friends as well so he hired me in Barclays as an agile coach and absolutely loved it he's amazing like so shout out to Jim if he's listening so he actually gave me the shot of agile coach because I never had any certs or anything

but it's mindset and he was like, you've got the mindset for agile. don't want you to have a cert. The ones that have a cert, they're just going tick box, tick box, tick box. But because you have the mindset to do it, you're actually doing agile right? And I was like, that makes no sense to me because I came from a lean Six Sigma background where it is very tick box and you get exactly very process heavy and you have to hit every process to get that cert within a year. Whereas agile is just a mindset. It's just the way you work and how you lead a team.

Sean Allen (: 07:18

processes in it right?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 07:31

And so I went into, so went to GFT as an agile coach, but this is what I love about consultancy. I was a program manager, was a project manager, was a scrum master, was a technical delivery manager. I think I was a BA at one point as well, writing some user stories, I was a product owner, because you do what the client wants. That's where the cross functionality comes. You fill in the gap. And that's where my public speaking shut up as well. again, another shout out. So I think this is going to be the narrative of this whole podcast.

you need good people behind you. You cannot do it on your own. So Dawn, she is amazing. Again, one of my very, very good friends. So she's the one that put me in the spotlight to do podcasts and also do blogs. And I worked a lot with Manchester Digital. So they were like, oh, do you want to do a day in the life of an agile coach? Because you're female, you're obviously of South Asian heritage, you're Muslim. Like, is it fantastic if you want to be a model? I'm like, I never really saw myself as a role model. However,

I do want to show my parents that I've been in a magazine. So I did a day in the life of to be in there. And then from there, I got up, like I learned, it like a domino effect, like write a post so my face isn't out there, but I learned how to create a story. Then I did a panel on International Women's Day, again, with Manchester Digital. So they really are, I always call it a key. They are the key to open doors.

Sean Allen (: 08:34

Love it.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 08:58

So now you have these kinds of things where before doors would ever like, doors might have been closed, but they were slightly open. So I could still like go through them without any, with ease. But now I feel like people really do lock the doors behind them. So I don't know where my career would be if I came into tech now. However, I see my digital as the ones with the key. So they shot my like brand up. And plus doing stuff like this, even a podcast, it shows that.

You must be an expert in your field because why would someone else invite you? So when you're on a stage and you're showing and you're voicing your opinion on a certain program, certain project, people know actually that's their expertise. So they know what they're talking about.

Sean Allen (: 09:38

Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Cause sometimes when you go on like a panel or you speak, speak about something, there's always that bit, well, there's, you know, I've sat in rooms before and gone, there's people here that know far more than me, but there's also a lot of people that don't know maybe what you're, you're speaking about and you need to remind yourself of that. Cause as soon as you see a few people that you're like, well, I look up to you to learn from. but then they still learn from you depending what you're talking about or, but it is putting yourself out there and sharing.

sharing that as a wider community to help them.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 10:13

Yeah, exactly. And plus, it's the we might know a little bit more than what the audience might know, but the audience might know more than us. However, they're going off our experience. what you want to say. Great thing with the panel is you bounce off each other. So the panel that I was on yesterday, we bounced off each other really well, the chemistry between the all four of the with the moderator as well was just amazing. I was probably the least. I always feel like I felt like I was the least experienced.

So when Nick and especially Ashwin, they were speaking, I was a bit like, right. So I was like, well, I'm going to give it you from my opinion as a transformation manager. So you do feel that way, but you learn so much off the other panelists, which I think is probably the most important on the moderator as well. Like Carolina, she knew so much as well out there. Like, God.

Sean Allen (: 11:06

scary when you get a good moderator, isn't it? You're like, oh yeah, I was hoping I'd get someone that didn't know anything that I was talking about, so they wouldn't probe. But I mean, it's amazing career today, isn't it? And I like the variety of roles that you've taken on, all with similar sort of connection, but still broadening your own sort of understanding career pathway. But I guess what's really interesting is you talk a lot about the people that have given you those.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 11:11

Yeah.

Sean Allen (: 11:34

opportunities and naturally like looking at the roles you've held more recently, you know, you're the person that is on the other side of the table, right, building and growing those teams. So how have you found that transition from being, you know, the start of your career where you're on the other side and you're just really passionate about what you're talking about and hoping that you're going to get, you know, through to the next round or get that offer to being the person that's there with the...

there with the questions and they're assessing people. How have you found that transition?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 12:05

It's actually quite difficult because you end up realising why you might not have got a role before because you start asking those questions to people and thinking, yeah, I would never have answered that. That was a very good answer there. it's the, again, I know I'm going to keep saying it because it's your title, but it's more than the CV. So I might have that CV there and they might have accomplished so much. However, people can...

elaborate, can't they? Like they can kind of make up what they've put on there. So they might have done, say, a regulation piece, but they might not have been the program manager for it. They might have just been one of the BAs and one of product owners type thing. And then like, yeah, we did this whole massive thing and I saved the bank how much money? And it's a bit like, right, we need to kind of dig in a little bit deeper. But the difference I see now is I also learn from bad experiences.

because everything's a learning. I'm a very, I think, I think you know this Sean now, cause we're friends. I'm a very positive person. So I see the good in everything. Everything to me is a learning. If I, if I think it's a missed opportunity, whether personal or professional, I never see it as a missed opportunity, but I see it as a learning cause I'm going to better myself for the next time. I never see it as a, I can't believe that didn't happen. It didn't go to plan. It's a, I'll just learn. Like I'm going to be a better person for the next, for the next one.

Sean Allen (: 13:02

Yeah.

Sean Allen (: 13:28

It's a nice outlook. It's a nice outlook. know when we caught recently, you've experienced hiring everything from summer interns to the VP level roles. How do you find pivoting if you've got a big hiring campaign on and you're going from an intern interview and then having a quick coffee or tea and then straight into a VP level?

interview, how do you find, how do you pivot between the two and do you change how you sort of interview, you know, based on that, you quite consistent? just the questions or the discussion that changes around it.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 14:12

Yeah, I think it's unfair if you don't pivot because you're hiring for two separate roles and you might even be hiring for the same kind of role but at a different level. So that's even more so like an engineer, might be getting a junior engineer, might be getting a senior engineer. So you have to pivot. And this actually happened to me. We were doing the intern rounds at the same time we were hiring for an SVP. So we were doing like, I was like, got the person that's...

Coming in for the first time is probably their first ever role to someone who's very, very senior, who's going to be a peer. So the way you have to pivot is you have to think about what's difference. And I do it in an agile way. Again, that's why I think I have that agile mindset, because you have to adapt depending on that scope. So for example, someone who's a junior, they want to be given an instruction.

So they want to be given that and execute it their way, but learn at the same time. So will they come back to me when they're stuck? Will they ask those questions? Whereas when you're hiring for a senior role, it's a, you may be given something, but it's going to be wishy washy. What are you going to do with that to problem solve, to figure out what the requirement actually is for that? Because you're going to be the one gathering that. So it does get difficult with when someone's new to the organization.

It might not be, it's probably not the way that B and Y do it, but it's the way that I do it. If someone's very new and an intern, if they've never had a job before, I need to be the one that gives them that role. Like I was very lucky because of the area that I live in that I could just get a part-time job because I used to be bored on the weekends. So I've been working since I was 16, but that was never a, it was never a financial thing. That was a...

what am going to do? Like everyone in my household works and my brothers were at uni at the time so I was literally just sat there during summer like what do I do? Because at the time of school like everyone used to live further away from me so we'd probably have like two weeks of the family well three weeks as a family to go on holiday that was together but for the rest of the three weeks I was just sat there so I need a job I need to be doing what everyone else in this house is doing so I

Zahraa Murtaza (: 16:28

And so I just went off got a job, but most people don't have that luxury now, especially if you're living in the city, because it is very, very demanding. I've seen roles that I probably would have gotten if I didn't have a degree back in the day. But now it's like, I know we want someone that's got a degree now and it's very, very difficult now. It's just so I'm like, well, I'll give you a chance. Yeah, I'm going to give you a chance because if you've if you've managed to pick up that, pick up, pick up a pen, paper, put your right down your CV.

and you're there and you're presenting yourself in such a manner, then it's perfect. And what I look for is in say interns, I don't really look for people that are like, I'm a lead, I'm a lead. I'm like, how are you a lead? So it's a, kind of want someone that can follow instructions, but then at the same time be that invisible sponge that will gather that information. And I know it sounds really bad because what you end up doing is this is where their bias is coming. You end up hiring someone similar to you.

Sean Allen (: 17:10

Yeah.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 17:26

So I will hire someone that looks similar to me. They might do. I hire someone that has very similar personality to me. So someone who, when I was an intern, I used to sit there and listen and absorb. I never used to, I'm going, I want to be a lead for this. I want to be a lead for this. used to kind of, so one thing I do differently now is I used to wait for that opportunity because I used to be a bit scared. But what I did was I used to absorb all that information and then go to one person to direct those questions.

just because they knew me and it's usually your line manager or that support that you have in there with your career coach. However, SVP, it's basically, if you have this problem, are you gonna go off and fix it or are you just gonna go to a textbook? Because I don't want to follow in a methodology. You follow a methodology at the start. So say if you're cooking, you follow a recipe when you first start cooking, but when you become a master, you make your own little.

add your little spices in, you do your own thing, so that's the difference. Like, always you use an analogy and also the difference is with small senior roles, if you can't explain something to me, simply you don't understand it yourself. So that's why I always use analogies and again, because I use an analogy just to show the interviewer I get what you're saying, so I'm gonna simplify it so much so that you understand that I get it.

Sean Allen (: 18:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I'll just keep breaking it down. It's almost like if it's two pages, it needs to be like two sentences. So how do you break that down so I can go, right, okay, yeah, we can move on that. And then I guess there's a nice piece here around sort of reflecting on past hiring practices then, because obviously you've clearly taken learnings from your own experiences as a candidate and what good processes look like, what you enjoyed, what you didn't.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 18:53

Yeah.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 18:57

Yes.

Sean Allen (: 19:18

like or enjoy. I imagine working with peers and different talent teams that you've worked with, finessing what those hiring practices look like. how do you look at that? Because I imagine it differs if you're taking your role in a consultancy to where you, always say a product company, but you know what I mean? When you're on that sort of side, do you look at things differently as the things that you...

Zahraa Murtaza (: 19:39

Yeah.

Sean Allen (: 19:47

won't give up now when it sort of comes to certain considerations before you go and hire for your team or yeah what have your learnings been from from those two because from consultancy i'm guessing you're saying it's like go go go so much in your hiring practices may have been great or not so great at times whereas i imagine bmy it's quite established structured you know thorough

Zahraa Murtaza (: 20:12

way of doing it. Yeah, actually, GFT were really good. That's where I've learnt from the practices because they have a career progression. So someone comes in and I was actually thinking about this. I don't know if it's the real way, but I always feel with consultancies, it might be a little bit easier to get the promotion compared to a permanent one because when you're in a consultancy, they want to sell you at a higher fee. So if you've got a promotion and the contract is going to then going back to negotiation and that customer wants you again.

Sean Allen (: 20:13

Yeah. Right.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 20:42

the consultancy can turn around and be like, we've actually given them a pay rise. They've got promo. So if you still really want that person, you gotta have to pay a premium again. So it works out that way. And one thing I've learned from GFT is roll cards. So what they had was they had roll cards to say, this is your first level, this is your second level, this is your third level. To get to the fourth level, is what your XYZ is different to that. And then I've taken that in because

Sean Allen (: 20:59

Okay.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 21:12

It's a two-way process. Because if someone is leaving a company for yours, what are you going to do differently? And usually it's people. Because there's always different reasons. So I was speaking to a lovely lady yesterday and she was like, yeah, obviously I changed roles because I've had kids. So I wanted something that's a little less time. I want to be able to pick my kids up. I want to be able to drop them off.

So it's easy for that and also people go to for the pensions as well, don't they, as they get older. But most people say our age will go for that career progression. So it's a when you leave a company, it's more likely where am I going to go? When am I going to head to next? Can I see myself moving? So we need to show them and be very transparent to say if you come into this role, there's other people that are at director MD level, SD level.

and they're in the same role as you, that's the role card there. So you do have the opportunity to jump. Whereas if it's a business analyst, you could say, you could be a senior business analyst or you could side step into product ownership. So you have a house family. So at B and Y we have practices, which is perfect because that's where your career is. So I'm in the agile practice, which is part of the enterprise transformation office. And obviously, because it's a transformation, that's my practice. Whereas where I work is different because it's a different platform.

So I like that.

Sean Allen (: 22:43

How does a, this is really interesting, and role count seems like such a agile thing to have as well, which I'm vibing for, but how does that differ to, so one thing we all hate, right, is a big old job description that, let's be honest, most people have never seen a job description for the role. They've seen an advert online, which is like nothing like the job description, and then the join, and then you'll never see it, or it's, you know, been out of date for 15 years or something.

How does that actually differ then? Because most people who want to progress would be like, you know, there may not be a role, but what do I need to do to get it? And then it will be like, some managers will pull out the JDs and go, these are the differences. Others will say, I just need to see you doing more of X, Y or Z. But the roll card sounds like it gives more practical pointers towards it if I'm not misunderstanding. So yeah, how does that differ to help people?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 23:38

So again, I'm going to use an agile word, it's objectives and your key results. So a job description would just be like tenacious, plus to work in a high volume client or something. So it's stuff like that. very generic with what it says on the job description. Whereas a role card has an objective but has a key result to it as well. So for example, you could have someone who's a scrum master and it could be leads.

a Scrum team with a objective of completing 80 % of work within Sprint. And then the role above could be Scrum Master for two pods and has an average of 80 % completed per Sprint. So it's stuff like that. Also, I don't like that percentage of 80%. What I would change that to is value added. So features deployed, bugs.

bugs decreased, amount of bugs decreased and stuff like that so it's actually a key result on there whereas job description is just really generic. I've seen some that are like 15 years of AI experience and like I'm sorry but I really don't think that was out there unless you're a data engineer and you just do their LLM model.

Sean Allen (: 24:43

20 years banking experience or something, you know, excellent.

Sean Allen (: 24:53

it.

Sean Allen (: 24:58

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, you see a lot, don't you? it's asking for the X years thing bugs me anyway, because it doesn't indicate competency or ability, it? But that's probably another podcast in itself. But while we're on that, you've touched on a few times through this conversation, Zara, around a bit around that transparency piece.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 25:10

Exactly.

Sean Allen (: 25:23

in essence, which I guess links heavily into the sort of D &I piece as well. But how do you look at sort of that transparency when hiring? So I know it's not all within your remit. You may be working with an internal talent team or an external recruiter when you are hiring for your team. But what are your thoughts around that transparency piece? I guess what have you implemented?

where you've been that you've seen help candidates because of it.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 25:56

I think it's be honest because like you said the job description is so generic that transparency piece is always always at the start of the call run through what the role is and give them actual examples so the person that's so you should you always have two people interviewing but one of them actually be the person that does that role as well so this is my role this is exactly what I do from a day to day this is the transparency I have because an adult coach is very different and it's even different if you go into different countries because

In the UK, agile coaches are usually seen as a technical delivery manager because you are adding value by releasing. say an agile coach is usually for tech stack and it's someone that's actually doing the technical delivery management as well at the same time. So you are a release train engineer or a solutions train engineer. Whereas you could go somewhere else and you could be a purist and it is just theory. So if you're transparent with, this is what the job description says. It's very generic. It's probably just.

probably got it off chat GPT now just to say make me an ideal coach job description and then but then if you go in and you're transparent with this is XYZ what you do during the day it's obviously not gonna look the same but this is very similar to what we do so you're probably gonna be doing lots and lots of workshops you're gonna be working a lot with senior people you're be working with engineers and business and you're gonna be the one that bridges those two together and then also if they if they ask you a question don't be one of those that's like yeah it's just not part of

we don't even want to say it, it's like what is it that they can't just go off and ask? I remember when I was asking one of my friends, I'm not going to say which company, but I was asking them like oh what's going on with these roles, I've seen XYZ on board and they're oh talk to me but don't talk to me about the roles and I was like right cool yeah exactly and I was only looking for that because someone had reached out to me to say I'm looking for a role

Sean Allen (: 27:41

What does that mean?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 27:49

And I was like, you clearly know I'm not going to be applying for this because it's like four levels below where I am. I'm clearly just asking because I'm trying to help someone get it. So that transparency piece comes in. And I think companies need to allow people to be transparent because it's a it's not cloak and daggers. You can literally go on glass door and find out everything.

Sean Allen (: 27:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Allen (: 28:10

Yeah, and to be fair, even there, might not even be 100 % accurate. So then it becomes misleading, but it's out there. So that's how people perceive it. So actually you can combat that, can't you, by being upfront with what your salaries are, what your interview processes are, what your working policies are. I know we've had discussions before, haven't we? know you've worked with lots of different people, whether it's childcare or care responsibility or pets, how as teams you've...

Zahraa Murtaza (: 28:14

yeah, that's very true.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 28:25

Yeah.

Sean Allen (: 28:40

afford that flexibility around that core bit to where you get your work done. But yeah, I remember I was in a role once, that's what the core hours were, and I just kept quoting the contractual hours. I was like, but what are the core hours? And it's like, oh, it's half eight or half five, whatever I might. Right, okay. So you just leave a conversation, because you're like, I'm not going to get an answer to this. So I'll just agree with my boss when I need flex and do it that way. But it was interesting.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 28:43

exactly.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 28:57

So that's the day.

Sean Allen (: 29:10

to say the least. guess the final question for me, Zahra, is because you can't have a conversation about anything recruitment related without mentioning AI. And given you're an AI advisor at AI Tech UK, it seems like you're the right person to throw this to. So without doing a whole new episode in answering this, and maybe we need to come back and do that, maybe get you and a colleague on.

and we'll just talk about the impact of AI. But what are your thoughts on it and the impact on the hiring process to keep it quite a direct question?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 29:48

I sound like one of those movies because I'm going to keep saying more than a CV so you know when it's like when you're watching a movie it's like this is die hard. So with with chat GPT now you know everyone every Tom, Dick and Harry is gonna be putting in these are my key bullet points this is my job description this is their job description can you just ping me some smart bullet points out and then that's gonna be read.

Sean Allen (: 29:55

I like it. I didn't ask Nara to do this, people. It's fine.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 30:18

again by an AI to read through it. it's like AI is just marking their own homework. So that's where, yeah, fair enough. I understand why companies do that. Like you put it through the ATS and you put it through that. And then I don't think things are going to change on that. think people are generally going to do that. So people are going to use chat GPT and recruiters are getting a lot smarter with taking that out. If you're going for a smaller firm, it's really good because it's very personable. Someone will read that and then they'll ring you up and it's a lot quicker.

than a larger firm. But it is more than a CV. It's how are you in the interview. But we also need to be quite careful because you need to think of neurodiversity as well. So this is something I need to be trained on because if someone's neurodivergent, I don't know what I need to do because we always say, how can we accommodate? But you never know how someone's going to be. So they might be quite nervous on a call, but then you have to think, if I'm hiring for a certain role, like an engineer or a solutions architect,

why don't we just give them a real life problem and then see how they do with that because yes they do need to be a team player but then what if you can't just because of the way you are like we should never be biased when it comes to that but if your job is to do it pick up a ticket complete the code and do it really well then why don't we test you on that so that's where that aptitude comes in because I remember when I first started off looking for grad roles aptitude test left right and centre

and I don't really think they're the right thing. And then you even have your assessment centres, which are fantastic, but they're always looking for like certain roles and it gets like really weird. So just be authentic to yourself. So that's mine. If you're going to an assessment centre, just be authentic to yourself. If you're going to an interview, be authentic. Don't be like, well, my mate actually got hired here. So these are the kinds of things that they said. Because people will easy cut you out if you're not authentic.

Sean Allen (: 32:13

It's a good point. think the chat GPT thing is an interesting one, isn't it? I mean, you can spot a LinkedIn post a mile off. It's got the really long dash that people don't take out or they might not. Yeah. Or they might not ask for the UK English. You're definitely not American. So why so many zeds? But no, I see you, but I think there's, it'd be interesting to see how it evolves through the process. I think, I think, you know, with tech, isn't it?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 32:21

Yeah, rock it as well.

Sean Allen (: 32:42

for good and how you utilize it, isn't it? But to your point, you still need those, think, when you're hiring, you still need those human touch points through the process, don't you, to go through. But no, that's great. I guess if anybody wants to chat to Zara to continue the conversation, find out more about BNY or AI Tech UK, we'll just reach out to you to get you to appear on their podcast or...

panel or whatever opportunity it may be. How can people reach out to you or connect with you?

Zahraa Murtaza (: 33:18

Yeah, so please do connect on LinkedIn, even comment on them, because I know you'll be posting this, just comment on there as well and then I'll reach out. I'm a very open person, so even if it's someone that just wants advice who's new in their career, more than happy to help because we all started off somewhere and I've had great mentors and still have mentors, just reach out. My mentors are very, very different to me, so don't ever be worried about having someone who's not like you. Go to them.

Sean Allen (: 33:47

So I'll make sure that's in the show notes. But from me, just a massive thank you. It's a pleasure as always. I'm sorry for, I this will come out at different time, but sorry for making you record at 9 a.m. after a late journey home last night. But no, it's been a pleasure, Zara, thank you.

Zahraa Murtaza (: 34:06

No worries. Thank you again, Sean. It's always a pleasure. See you soon. Bye.

Sean Allen (: 34:08

Awesome, see you soon.