Episode 2
Understanding 'Why' in Recruitment Strategy
More Than A CV is proudly sponsored by Biometric Talent - The Tech Authentication Specialists.
In this episode of the More Than a CV podcast, Sean Allen speaks with Johnny Hiles, a talent acquisition leader with extensive experience in the tech and digital market. They discuss the importance of understanding the 'why' behind recruitment, the impact of employee ownership on recruitment strategies, and the significance of culture and values in hiring practices.
Johnny shares insights on developing an effective Employer Value Proposition (EVP) and emphasises the need for diversity and inclusion in recruitment. He also offers valuable advice for recruitment professionals looking to improve their practices.
Connect with Jonny here – Jonny Hiles | LinkedIn
If you'd like to appear on the podcast or share topics you'd like us to cover in the future, please contact Sean Allen here - Sean Allen | LinkedIn
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Transcript
Welcome to the More Than a CV podcast. In this week's episode, I'm delighted to be joined today by Johnny Hales, talent acquisition leader at Answer Digital. Johnny has 15 years hiring within the tech and digital market, spanning brands such as Jet2, Sky, Equal Experts, and BAE Systems Digital Intelligence. Answer Digital is an employee-owned technology consultancy based in Leeds. With deep, technical expertise, I need to redo this now, mate.
Right, fuck's sake. Thing is, I was so hung up on BAE, I forgot. Yeah, so I'll just leave that one off, because it threw me.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, digital intelligence is a mouthful. is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just say, just say like BAE or something like that. Yeah.
Sean Allen (:Do you know, we'll just roll with it and we'll just start it again. Right. Fuck's sake. Welcome to the More Than a CV podcast. In this week's episode, I'm delighted to be joined today by Johnny Hiles, Talent Acquisition Leader at Ansar Digital. Johnny has 15 years hiring within the tech and digital market, spanning brands such as Jet2, Sky, Equal Experts, and BAE Systems Digital Intelligence. Ansar Digital is an employee-owned technology consultancy based in Leeds.
with deep technical expertise across healthcare, finance and retail. Their people first culture allows them to fully understand their clients challenges and deliver solutions that add true value. Welcome Johnny, thanks for joining us today. How are you mate?
Jonny Hiles (:No, think... Yeah, I'm good, thanks Sean. Thank you for having me on. Good to be here.
Sean Allen (:Good, no, it's a pleasure. It's always good to catch up with you. So thank you for joining. For our listeners that may not know you, and you are a well-known guy, but there may be a few, it'd be great just to hear a bit more about you and your background and I guess what brought us together for this conversation today.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, absolutely. So I have worked in recruitment for, as you mentioned, thanks for that 15 years now, which I only realized when I checked my LinkedIn for this podcast and it made me feel incredibly old really quickly. So yeah, I've worked in kind of talent acquisition and recruitment for a little while. I had a couple of roles first off in agency world. My last role there, I worked for
an organization supplying into CAPITAS CL1 framework. So we did a lot of central Gov, kind digital and tech roles within central Gov space. I then kind of got into internal recruitment through JET2. So that was my first role internally. And I was brought in to initially reduce agency spend across digital and tech roles. But then by the time I left, I was doing engineering roles in Belfast.
I like loads of stuff within kind of the head office. It was incredibly varied in terms of the work we got involved with. And then that's when I met yourself. So we obviously worked together at Sky. We were in the recruitment team involved in that huge project and some massive hiring numbers around bringing people from kind of Osterley and everywhere up through to the lead stock. And then after that, I spent the best part of 10 years working across a couple of tech consultancies. So I was one of the people managers in the North for Equal Experts.
and then I went to BAE Systems, their software consultancy and the last three years I've been at Ansor as their talent acquisition lead. So we are, like you said, an employee-owned tech consultancy based up here in Leeds, got an office in Manchester and we've got a handful of remote people as well. But that's kind of a whistle stop tour of the last 15 years, I guess.
Sean Allen (:Nice, Not as many jobs as you might think in 15 years. It's quite varied isn't it? It's obviously the last few roles all on the consultants piece which I imagine even them in themselves differ from each other quite a lot.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, absolutely. think one of the really interesting things is whilst my background has been predominantly digital and tech hiring and essentially recruiting the same kind of types of skills or the same types of people, the kind of the why and the how has changed. So looking at how each of those organizations recruits and why they recruit is really, different. And I think looking back, it's been really interesting to see that change to go, I've recruited engineers for a couple of different companies, but the way we've gone about it and why we've needed to do it has been really different.
So that's been really interesting.
Sean Allen (:So that's a really interesting point we'll pick on then is the why, because I think a lot of the time in recruitment we can be quite reactive and sort of just go in pressure just to go to market and fill the roles that are put in front of us or brought to us. So it'd be good to get a bit more from you on that understanding why, because I know you do a lot around the strategy with Antidigital as well. So it'd be great if you could sort of us more about that.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, absolutely. I think that's definitely the most, one of the most overlooked parts of recruitment is understanding like why, why are we recruiting? And I don't necessarily mean it in the sense of like this role I'm working, why does the business need it? But trying to understand like what our purpose as recruitment teams or talent acquisitions teams is to our business and kind of the why are we here? I mean, I'm guilty of it, you we've kind of doing the same things because they've worked over and over again without really challenging it. And I think
Like how many times as recruiters do we do that? You know, or as hiring managers, how often have we interviewed people the same way we've done in previous companies or recruited the same way we've done in previous companies because that's worked without really understanding the why, I guess. And I think sort of looking at it and kind of looking at why it's important. You know, there are so many benefits, I think, especially from like a cost speed, operational efficiency point of view, you know, there's
more and more businesses are putting TA teams under a microscope and looking at how cost efficient they are or how efficient they are as a business. And I think making sure we are efficient, the tools we use for purpose, all that stuff, a lot of that boils down to why. For an example, was trying to think of one where if your goal as a recruitment team is to hire big volumes of numbers and bring, there's a real volume piece there, which a big part of that was when we were at Sky together.
Well, if you're using a tool that only gives you access to the top 10 % of people or a real small talent pool, is that going to be giving you the best answers for your why? And I think if you really nail down understanding why your business recruits and the purpose of the roles you fill, I think you get that right. Often people join your business and much happier. They stay for longer. They'll have much more fulfilled careers.
That's the goal of every TA person, isn't it right? To make sure the people we hire, I feel like are kind of custodians of a huge responsibility being in charge of people's career moves. And I think if we can do something that makes those moves more successful and happier, then I think everyone wins.
Sean Allen (:I love that and I would really want to sort of dive into how it's different in different places. Before I do, obviously at Anser being employee owned, there's obviously a sort of, not incentive, but there's a very conscious effort around everything that you're doing, you know, with that in mind. How do you fit all of this into your strategy? I you mentioned around toolings and stuff, but...
Jonny Hiles (:Mm-hmm.
Sean Allen (:From what it sounds like, T.A., you were very much at that table with higher-risk plans and new financial years and all of that going on.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, I think it's been.
100%. So I think, answer, mean, like you mentioned, we are, you know, we're proudly employee owned and I think it really impacts so many different areas of our business and our leadership team have done an incredible job for the last couple of years of trying to focus on what we call an owner's mindset and this idea that whatever part of the business you are, we want people to feel like they're an owner and they're invested and it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, calling the shots and firing people, but it's more actually if I can impact, you know, the success of our business.
in whatever shape it is, then people should be empowered to do that and recruitment fits into that. So I think everyone is lucky. There's a real spotlight here on making sure whatever you do, like operationally, is it the best thing? You know, it's not just a case of doing something because we've always done it, but can we do it better? Can we do it, you know, can we do something better for our customers? There's that real kind of actually, you know, I want people to be responsible and have that owner's mindset.
And recruitment is the same. We look at all the tools we use. look at we've done loads of work. And I want to talk a bit more about our EVP and making sure what we do is the right thing. I think we're guilty of a business of recruiting the same way for a little while. And in that period, we went on a huge growth journey from 30 people to 100 plus. And it's like, actually, they're two very different organizations.
it seems silly that we should recruit in the same way when actually, you know, we should make sure what we're saying to people and how we're doing it and the why we're doing it is the same. You know, now it's kind of, it's, you know, it reflects our business in the same way.
Sean Allen (:So officially, I imagine you don't get blockers to interviews now with hiring managers either.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, but it's a challenge because you get people breathing down your neck, know, if we're not filling roles quick enough or if we're not providing CVs or you know that we're not successful and that's one of the challenges I say to people when we work here, like you will have so much support and people will do everything they can to help you but if someone needs help and they think you know the answer, they won't be scared to come and say, Johnny, like show me what to do.
Sean Allen (:You
Jonny Hiles (:And it's amazing and it definitely, you know, and we try and make that as transparent through our recruitment process. Like if you need help, I've never worked in a business where you get so much support from people, there's nowhere to hide when CVs aren't coming quick enough. Exactly.
Sean Allen (:It's a nice problem to have on its other way around, isn't it? You mentioned obviously that being so different, I guess there's a reflection piece, isn't there, on your career today around that why in different organisations? Did you see what that why was when you were in the moment in some of those companies and was it quite clearly defined or was it sort of a reflection piece after you'd left or after...
end of lots of hiring campaigns. It'd be good to hear the differences from past places you've worked.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah.
Absolutely. I think a mix, think probably the biggest change was my kind of experience of being able to look back and understand it. So I think certainly in my first few internal roles, I maybe kind of couldn't see the wood from the trees. It was much more, you know, I was focused on delivering and actually didn't really understand the kind of the differences. But I think as I've worked in different companies and seen how different organizations have recruited and the why and understanding that strategy, it's definitely helped me to look back and go, that's why that was like that. Or that was, you know, a thing we did.
I remember in my first internal role at Jet2, they're incredible at hiring, like recruiting internally. when I worked there, they prioritized, you know, internal job boards and kind of internal movement. And it was incredible. You would post a role and have so many people interested in the business. And even in really complex roles like tech, would have, you know, testers who'd previously worked in the call center or in finance or wherever. And there was so much movement because for them, if you understood the culture and understood the...
kind of if you're part of Jet2, then they'd support you to do a lot of stuff. And what that meant was actually when we didn't recruit internally, there was maybe less pressure to, you know, use agency spend or spend more money on tools because the reality was, you know, a big part of our actual roles that were recruited were done by people with inside the business. And then again, talking about Sky, when we worked together there, there was that huge emphasis on speed and delivery. And that was like,
I've never seen pressure like that. Obviously the volume of people we needed to recruit was crazy. And then that meant, you know, there were roles where if you couldn't potentially find the technologies or the experience or for whatever reason, you had to look at other routes to market because speed was important. So I remember the internal bootcamp you set up for the Ruby, the kind of the Ruby tribe and all that interesting work that, you know,
Jonny Hiles (:You spent months looking for people and they kind of almost didn't exist. So it was a case of right, well, the deadline's still there. Like, how do we recruit that? And it was a case of instead of hiring a team of five to 10 experienced people, we brought a couple of senior people in and then up skilled people and cross-trained people to fill the rest of those gaps. So yeah. Yeah.
Sean Allen (:out Josh Nesbitt for that, he built that. I was just very grateful for it.
Jonny Hiles (:Even to a point where we were in Poland for two weeks at that conference trying to prioritize leads as the tech hub of the UK. So think that was really interesting moving from an environment where internal mobility was a huge priority to them to then a business where you had these huge time scales to hire and that was the main driver. And then again, EqualExpert's slightly different for them. They talked a lot about this mantra of keeping the bar high and that was their recruitment ethos was they wanted to hire the top
X percent and that meant their recruitment process was, you know, two, three, four stages. They focused a lot on referrals. They really wanted high performing people. But then the challenge of that was trying to scale was incredibly difficult. I remember when I interviewed them, they talked to me about the numbers of building the team in the North up. And I was like, me and Sean just did that, you know, Sky the last three months. And then the reality was it was incredibly hard because they're best, they're kind of they wanted only the best of the best of the best. And that the challenges that brought along with it.
Sean Allen (:Was their model slightly different as well? it quite interim?
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, yeah. So because they were experienced, was very a blend of permanent and contract recruitment, but they didn't take, they had no kind of real junior academy entry level program, which meant it was from like a kind of a diversity point of view. You know, you would only get people who'd maybe had six, seven, eight plus years experience and the challenges that came along with that. Yeah, so that kind of, think that had its own challenges and very different to, know, different to how the other organizations would have been.
And then, I think I mentioned that the whole employee-owned piece and that owner's mindset, that definitely impacts our recruitment process. So we talk a lot about our kind of values and our culture. And it feels really cliche at times saying it. But we have a part of our recruitment process dedicated to that. So whether you're an academy or a director joining our business, you still have to go through this interview process that really unpicks.
you know, how you like to work, what values are important to you, talking about our values and kind of showcasing, you know, this is how we work and this is what we want. And they're on our website. They're things like, you know, put love in the room and do the right thing in the right way. And there's a real spotlight that there's a real expectation that people add to that. You know, we, don't want, you know, I said about the, I joked about people coming to you if, there's CVs aren't done in time, but there's that real like, that real expectation that if I can help someone's role, of course I want to do it, but then it's
it comes, you everything comes back, right? If someone can help me, then I get that help back. Yeah. And I think the, I joke about it quite like heartedly when I speak to candidates, but there's this idea that if we had someone who was incredibly, you know, a really high performing individual and, you know, the best software engineer or the best delivery manager, kind of culturally went about things the wrong way, was incredibly toxic and incredibly abrasive. The impact that has on our culture is
people would leave, you wouldn't be like, well, why am I staying here to deal with this? you know, the reality is our people are more than employees, they're essentially shareholders. And if all of them leave, you can't be employee owned without people. there's a real spotlight on like, you know, making our culture and developing our culture to the best it can be. Because if it's not and everyone leaves, well, you can't be employee owned without people.
Sean Allen (:True, yeah, and I'm not just saying this, I've come to meet you for lunch and you've given very kindly give me a quick tour around the office as well. But you can see it, everybody knows everybody takes a time out to chat and say hello and welcomes guests when they come in and you can see that that's we've through.
Jonny Hiles (:And a big part of how we recruit is really driven that. So we run an academy model. We're one of the first businesses in the north to run an academy model. And amazingly, we've still got two of our first academics like 10 years ago still in the business. And there's this real culture that if you come from an academy, once you've graduated, your responsibility is the academy. So you run the next one. And there's that real kind of like.
of everyone wants to support and help one another because of that. So yeah, I think we got a lot of hellos when we did that tour and it is because people care.
Sean Allen (:Yeah, and it's nice to see because you do walk in some places and you can just get a funny look because I don't know who that person is. Whereas you can see that warm embrace kind of vibe that everybody has, which was just lovely to see just getting a quick whistle stop tour. And I guess that leads quite nicely, I only touched on it earlier, Jonny, around sort of EVP and culture. I'm linking that back up to what we're talking about, understanding the why in recruitment.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah.
Sean Allen (:I know you've done a lot around the EVP stuff in the last six months or a year. How do you ensure that flows all the way through? Because I think the messaging is really important, right? Because we can say something, but how do you make sure that if somebody doesn't know you, doesn't know anyone else to answer, but they go on your website or speak to somebody at one of your clients that's working with you? How do you sort of get that to sort of shine through, I guess?
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, so I think that the main thing is making sure the messaging is honest. So think one of the things I found really interesting when I worked here is how incredibly different and diverse our business is. the recruitment messaging was still fairly similar. whether we would recruit for, can we do that one again? I burped halfway through. Sorry, can we? I mean, I'll toss that. Don't edit a burping for the TikToks.
Sean Allen (:Yeah, I'll work on it now, so that's fine.
Jonny Hiles (:You ask the question and then I'll go. I what I was say, I burped just as I started speaking.
Sean Allen (:That's fine.
So that's just really sort of leads me a really good point and leads me on to what you sort of hinted at through the sort of the why when you're talking about EVP and culture. So I know you've done a load of work and I think the last six months, 12 months at Antidigital around the sort of EVP. But how do you get that message in all the way?
through so whether you know of Ansa Digital or you've never heard of them and bump into someone that's worked with you, how do you ensure that why and that culture filters all the way through everything that you're doing?
Jonny Hiles (:Absolutely. So I think the number one thing to make sure is to be honest and transparent, I think. If you're really clear with what you're articulating, then that really does shine through. I kind of stumbled through the EVP thing by accident, if I'm being completely honest, because I looked at a lot of our recruitment messaging and how we recruited and what we said, and it felt really consistent across the business when...
I think one of the things I love about Answers is how incredibly varied and diverse our business is. We've got massive teams, we've got small teams, we've got a mix of everything in between. And it didn't really feel like our recruitment messaging reflected that. It felt like we said the same thing. And actually, I kind of challenged it and was like, whilst obviously we have, you would be joining Answers and a bigger company and all that stuff, and you need to feel like you're a part of us. Surely your experience should slightly differ, reflective of what
you know, where you essentially will be spending, most of your working time. So we did some work, big shout out for the TTC. Yeah, we'll talk about them a little bit at the end, but I kind of put a call to arms around, I want to change like our employer brand and how we recruit and what do I do about it? And a couple of people got back in touch and talked, I guess, explained to me what EVP was, because I didn't really understand, if I'm honest, I'm not a marketer. And it is...
Sean Allen (:Sometimes, isn't it? Where companies go away, look at it for ages, reposition five original values and then just spit it out and then nothing happens with it a week later. That's how I remember EVP and not disrespecting our EVP, but the pessimistic side of me sees it that way.
Jonny Hiles (:Exactly. Exactly that.
Jonny Hiles (:So I'm probably gonna butcher this and I'll get a lot of stick for it, but ultimately your EVP is why someone should want to work for you and it's not just about like the salary and benefits, but can be everything from culture, career progression, day to day life. And when you don't get that right, know, bad things happen. If someone joins and expects one thing and the reality is their job is very different, they're not gonna stay around for long. You know, we've all seen horrible reviews on Glassdoor when companies don't get it right.
so I think it's really important, you know, obviously, both from the people side and the organizational, know, organizational side. so we did an audit across our entire business. We, was really, really exciting to be a part of. got, you know, loads of workshops across all our different capabilities, got loads of different people in different rooms. And I ultimately asked probably about 20, 25 questions that were all the same, understanding kind of the, the uniqueness of each team, why someone should come to what wants to work at answer what's good, what's bad.
And I think even that is a lot of businesses can be quite nervous around articulating maybe some of the challenges they face. But I think being honest and saying, do you know what, we're not perfect. I think a lot of people really appreciate that because they can make a decision to say whether something's for them or not. So I think, understanding some of the challenges you might have. And then looking at it from the candidate's perspective as well, like what skills really make, what does success look like in your team?
For example, in some of the larger teams we've got, there's a lot of support, a lot of community, a lot of all those really good things if you're part of a team of 30, 40 people. But in some of our smaller pockets of knowledge where there's not as many people, there's a real close-knit community, would say. There's a few people, but they're much, closer. And actually, if you're wanting to join a large team and that large team isn't there.
you're not going to be happy if you turn up on day one. So I think really understanding what skills, what makes success, I think, within each team. So we did that. We got all that data. And then I, again, was on the TTC going, I've done all this stuff. What do I do next? And shout out to Gina from Northern as well. The EVP manager there, was an incredible help putting together almost like a bit of a support tool and helping me put that together to say, actually,
Sean Allen (:You
Jonny Hiles (:whoever you are in the business, whether you're working recruitment, whether you're a hiring manager, whether you're someone who just wants to refer a friend and you don't really know a lot about that team, we've got a document that everyone can access that, you know, of highlights all that information, like what skills are needed. If you're talking about working in that team, what words should you use? So yeah, I think that that was kind of the main thing for us was building something that people can use. And it obviously evolved over time. Our plan is to review it every couple of years and make sure kind of as we hit growth milestones,
what we're saying is still very accurate. And as the teams grow as well, I think that's really important. we've got a tool there that people can look at and go, I know what it's like to be a data engineer, or I know what it's like to be a delivery manager. I can kind of use that to help shape how we bring people in and making sure what we say is true.
Sean Allen (:I'll go back to my joke earlier about just being values. I know it isn't to any employee brand or ABP people. I've lent on them a lot just for basic branding stuff in the past. then actually when you, to your point, when you talk to people that know that world, you start off with a bit of a map of what you think you're doing. And then all these branches come out because there is so much to consider and like impact and not wanting to.
Jonny Hiles (:Ha ha ha
Jonny Hiles (:Mm-hmm.
Sean Allen (:say one thing but actually it means something different over here so to your point that language that's being used has to just be really carefully considered. I assume you brought that out recently right?
Jonny Hiles (:Yep.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, we did. It was the start of the year and it was really interesting because we did like a big kind of lunch and learn and across the business, but everyone who was involved in it was kind of pre already involved with it. So was really interesting. Like a lot of people had a vested interest because they were involved in the workshop sessions and, you know, they wanted to see sort of how their feedback had been presented. So yeah, we did like a big rollout, kind of big education piece, but it's there on our...
on our internet site for people to access. share it pretty consistently when we recruit because we want people to feel like actually, you if you're a senior manager in a team and you maybe don't have your ear to the ground in terms of understanding what the culture is like in the entry level people within the team, where you've got some information there so you can say actually, you know, I'm not a junior engineer, but this is what our engineer community think or this is what they feel, all those things. Yeah, so we feel like it definitely helps. Certainly from a hiring manager perspective and I think it's like a...
talent partner to be able to offer that to our hiring community to say look you know we've got a tool here for you and it's given us a bit of credibility.
Sean Allen (:It's nice to see that consistency as well as an excellent when you're working on recruitment or talent, however you want to phrase it. You know, your craft is being able to articulate that message and the BITS candidates are really after tuning into what you can offer that much is that, but then the consistency of all those further conversations they have being true is often where, you can in our world not oversell, but sell one part and then a manager completely different.
Jonny Hiles (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, and then someone completely destroys that.
Sean Allen (:Yeah, it's nice to see it's obviously the same message all the way through, which I guess is reassurance to a candidate as well. they're not wasting their time, are they? You touched around sort of diversity within the team. So it'd be good to understand the work you've been doing at Answer Digital and how you've weaved diversity and inclusion into the, I guess, the why, understanding the why from your recruitment.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah.
Sean Allen (:strategy and all the elements to it.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, absolutely. So I think we're really fortunate where as a business, we've got a lot of things in place which allow us to be a really inclusive employer. So we run our Academy program, is across all our business units and allows, it's essentially an entry level program for people to get into tech. And I think with us being a consultancy and a professional services business, there's a huge kind of benefit for people of having life skills and we fully support kind of career changes. So where I think maybe in
organizations that don't have that structure and you you've got to have had a 2.1 from a red brick university in computer sciences. I think for us it's completely opposite. We teach people the tech stuff you know it's like a 12 week program you know you join us from the start and we support that learning but the thing we really value is people who have got a bit of life experience so we partner with a lot of organizations that support you know diverse and inclusive routes to market so
the likes of, you know, North coders, generation tech returners, all those great names that have done loads of stuff in the North. We've worked closely with them for, for years and years because we've got a structure in place to do that. And I think if there's any TA people who are potentially at a point where their organization is thinking about, you know, looking at academies or kind of rolling out, you know, something new like that, I'd be more than happy to kind of share and support how we do it. Cause I think the more businesses can do that.
you know, it's definitely the area where we were allowed to kind of, we've got creative freedom to be as inclusive an employer as possible. We do stuff like loads of financial support around covering interview costs and we, the start of this year, have looked at supporting, helping parents around covering childcare costs for interviews. So if someone's only able to interview in person and they've got childcare commitments, we can fully support that financially. So loads of things like that, that I think.
We've almost seen the benefits of having an inclusive workforce first and then gone, that's brilliant. How do we do more of that? So I think if there's any employers who are at the start of that journey, more than happy to share the successes we've done and how we've done it.
Sean Allen (:I love that. I love that because it's, we want to be inclusive and bring in people from all backgrounds. But when we really think about it, we need to make sure we remove those barriers that stop people actually getting to us in the first place.
Jonny Hiles (:Mm-hmm.
Jonny Hiles (:think that's the thing isn't it it's like and I think it was a real wake-up call for me when I had an interview organized and I candid asked if we covered train costs it wasn't answered it was in another life and I kind of was like well I'm not actually sure if we do or not and it said he couldn't interview because he was like I've got you know seven different interviews to go to and I'm having to pay a train for every one you know that can be like a month salary the price of train costs so I think it's something that often people don't really think about
But the reality is unless it hits you like that and you lose out on a candidate because you can't cover a train fare, which in the grand scheme of things for a business is a relatively small cost, I think it's really hard, certainly now for organizations, to be as inclusive as they can unless they can see the success and the positive results that delivers. Budgets get tighter.
You know, there's, and I get it, you know, there's, it becomes harder and harder, but unless you've already seen, actually, we've got, you know, we've hired these, you know, this diverse workforce and all the good stuff that comes from it. It's, it's tough to justify it. And, know, I'm fortunate to work in a business where we've kind of seen the success to know it's worth the funding.
Sean Allen (:No doubt you're going to get a lot of people reach out now and ask how you've got buy-in to do that. But obviously I guess being employee-owned and everyone going in that same direction and all on the same, why we're doing this, makes a big difference as opposed to you needing to go to someone in C-suite and make a presentation on why you should do something.
Jonny Hiles (:Mm-hmm.
Jonny Hiles (:I still have to do that. Don't get me wrong. I don't get to call the shop and decide where all my money's being spent. But I think a lot of it's just been able to clearly articulate the positives. And it's like, you know what, there might be an upfront cost, but the reality is if someone, you know, stays with your business and the retention is three times the longer than average. And that's one of the things, one of the partners we work with, there's a fee you have to pay to engage with them and actually to be able to provide the data where you can say, look, the retention staff, the retention time of people who've joined us is, you know,
five times the industry average, well then that cost equates to 20p a week. And I think that's the challenge. It's been able to articulate that message in the right way to get buy-in. Often it's been able to take senior leaders and C-suite people on that journey with you to understand why it's the right thing to do.
Sean Allen (:tell someone the cost of a bad hire and they open the ring.
Jonny Hiles (:Exactly, yeah, I think that was the start of my EVP where it was like 45 grand is the industry average for a hire going wrong and it's like, right, we best get this right.
Sean Allen (:No pressure. Just conscious of time, Jonny, because I could sit and chat to you forever, but maybe we'll get you back on and we'll... there's certain parts of this conversation people really want to hone in on, we can do another deep dive into those areas. just for our listeners from what you said, any sort of...
takeaways or advice you'd give to people who are looking at this journey or about to enter this journey.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, so I think of the journey itself, I think definitely do research and make sure kind of never make assumptions. understanding the how and the why, the best way you can do that is to engage with your business. So the workshop sessions we did were amazing. If you feel like people potentially might not be that engaged in them, then I think you'll be really surprised if you educate them on the kind of why are we doing this? Like, why do I want to make sure we're recruiting the best we can be?
And I think I was really surprised positively about how engaged people were and how much we got. And I think I was a little nervous at the start. No one wants to talk about recruitment, but the reality is if you can articulate why it's important, then people want to help. So definitely that. Never make assumptions. I think it'd be the first one for me. I was really surprised with some of the findings and actually found a lot of it quite useful. I think the whole kind of, it sounds really cliche, but the network and learn piece, I think.
We don't have an employer brand person here. I have almost zero experience in recruitment marketing. So I think I really needed to put myself into a position where I could ask people questions and learn and support. And if that's your own network, you know, getting on LinkedIn, the TTC, check them out. A thousand percent plug. That is a brilliant community of, of, of agency, internal and everywhere in between people. And I think I've been able to just say, my head hurts. I've got this question and people will help you.
So I think that network piece is definitely another one and kind of don't be afraid to fail. I mean, you try it and nothing comes from it. What's the worst that can happen? You've wasted a little bit of time, but think the reality is if we can make how we recruit as a business better, we bring in people who stay with us for longer, higher performing and happier. Everyone wins, I think. So don't be afraid to learn, to fail, sorry.
Sean Allen (:in support in the past by employer brand people and they're wonderful and they make their job look really easy till you have to learn how to do something you know 0.1 % of it so yeah it sounds like you've been on a good journey and I guess if people do want to chat to you Jonny I'm sure they do about anything you've discussed today or if any of our listeners are just interested in a career at Anst Digital what's the best way that they can get hold of you?
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, very true.
Jonny Hiles (:Yeah, so absolutely connect with me on LinkedIn. Drop me a message. I'm more than happy to chat about what we do as a business and kind of what I've done and all the mistakes I've made and how I've learned from them. Other than that, I guess, yeah, being a part of the TTC, I am very much in there and active. So get involved and drop me a message on Slack on there if that's easier. But yeah, more than happy to speak to anyone about either the stuff we've done, answer from a recruitment perspective or as an employer if anyone's interested.
Sean Allen (:I'll make sure the hyperlinks are in the show notes. But it's a pleasure. Thank you for just being open and honest as you always are. It's been a really enjoyable conversation and yeah, thank you very much for your time, Johnny.
Jonny Hiles (:Perfect.
Jonny Hiles (:No thank you, was awesome to be part of. Thank you so much. Bye.
Sean Allen (:Cheers mate, bye.
